Imaginary Theology
Aug. 26th, 2006 10:49 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
danalwynI am done with shifts! Finally! And we would have had a record luminosity run too if DZero hadn't gotten hit with lightning. Stupid DZero...
In celebration I went out last night and picked up some more Chick Tracts (Unloved and Bad Bob), in the process getting myself into a discussion with one of the pamphleteers for over an hour. It was an amiable discussion - we just didn't find ourselves agreeing on a lot of points. The discussion quickly ended up in the old faith-and-works argument, as well as debate on whether or not you could declare yourself "Saved".
I'm not very fond of the faith-only approach, so I argued against it. In the process, however, I had to project my beliefs into the form of Christianity. Since I am not, precisely, Christian, understand that I found this a bit difficult to do. As a result, I wonder if, somehow, in doing so I committed some kind of doctrinal fault. Because I have no idea how I sounded (he was well-practiced), I have no idea if I am insulting Christianity by just appearing to ape it. After all, I am taking beliefs that fit me, and that are manifestly mine, and entering them in a framework that I only believe is compatible. So, in light of possible future encounters, I have written down my argument here, and freely invite people to come tear it to shreds or find doctrinal holes (I expect that there are some in there somewhere). This is actually heartfelt; I want to know if my conception of what Christian beliefs could mean is completely unacceptable to Christianity.
Note: Since I am essentially projecting myself into a religion I may or may not share, I will understand perfectly if someone wishes to flame me to death for this. I expect most people will not agree.
1) In the beginning there was Jesus, who died upon the cross to redeem the sins of mankind.
2) And this was a sacrifice, and like all sacrifices, freely given. If someone wanted to sacrifice their life to save your pregnant mother, you can't undo the sacrifice. You can do whatever you like with your life - it's yours, but the sacrifice cannot be undone. What was done was done freely, given to all of mankind, with no obligation or strings attached. If there were strings attached it would not be a sacrifice, and then what would the point be?
3) And this means that all of us are washed free of sin - more or less.
4) Which means that all of us look favorable in the eyes of God. For which there seems to be a fair amount of Biblical evidence to the contrary. Let's face it, we do a lot of terrible things in life. Surely there is an accounting for this eventually, isn't there? God being a just God and all.
5) So if not everyone goes to heaven, who does? Jesus claimed that we needed Faith to enter heaven, and that he was the Way. To the born-again crowd, Faith is key.
6) But what is Faith? For many people, it comes out as something of a magic formula. Claim that you trust some guy, and you get into heaven. Taking the name of Jesus, and claiming that you trust in him as savior, is the only way to enter the holy gates. Jesus claimed that no man came unto the Father except by him, which you can use as evidence. But that seems rather arbitrary. Millions of people have lived and died over the years without ever hearing His name. Do they all get a one-way ticket to hell? What about those who have never seen an example of a good Christian, or whose only exposure to Jesus is through overblown and overdone sermons, or other obvious falsehoods? Are we to blame for the failings of His missionaries? Given what Jesus said, I would venture to say no.
7) So let us assume that when Jesus was speaking of himself being the Way, that he was speaking of something else entirely. For no man can come unto the Lord except through the sacrifice He made. He is then the Way, not just for those who cling to His name, but for all mankind.
8) So then what tells us is that we are pleasing in the sight of God through Faith, but also that Faith has multiple meanings. It is not simply name-chanting, it must be something more thorough and all-encompassing. So who gets to stay?
9) Jesus answers this question by deed and action. Why did he spend so much time preaching the Sermon on the Mount, which is perhaps the climax of the entire New Testament? Why does he speak of casting away riches to feed the poor, and tell us that a camel could more easily pass through the eye of a needle than enter the gate of heaven. Why are the sheep and goats separated by basis of their deeds and not their faith - in fact, does Jesus even question their faith? Why does he tell us that not all who say "Lord, Lord" will enter heaven, but only those who do the will of the Father?
10) Because, for Jesus, Faith meant loving humanity, loving your neighbor as your brother, loving the meek, loving the poor and the downtrodden and the beaten as much as the rich and the famous. But love that is not acted upon remains merely childish infatuation. You cannot know either God's will, or the driving passion behind Jesus's life, you cannot have faith in a good and loving deity, and not follow the path that Jesus laid. It is impossible to believe without loving, and you cannot love without acting upon that love. Words are not enough - deeds must go along.
11) In the end (and this is a bit of a stretch), Jesus did not die just to give us all a Free Ticket Out of Hell. He died to open a way that we could, if we tried enough, follow. If there is anything in His message to which we must listen, it is this: If we are to believe in Him then we must act as He did, as He would. In the end we will make mistakes, and sin, and do other terrible things because we are human and fallible. But, in the end we will come to heaven, and stand before the Throne, and we will be weighed on whether or not we fulfilled the basic commandment of Jesus' life, to love our neighbor. Did we have faith in life in the nature of good, faith in our fellow man and in his Creator, faith enough to sustain us while we faced a world that many times rewards good deeds with hardship? If so, then we shall find favor in the eyes of God. Whether we knew or said the magic name is not part of this - who cares if you know a name? There is a deeper meaning to faith, and it is that we must achieve.
12) So in the end, you will be Judged and either found wanting or pleasing. We do not know how harshly the judgment will be - for the Lord has not revealed it ahead of time, nor do we know what His decision is, for that decision is his alone. He is just, and loving, and merciful, but He is Himself, and we do not know while still on earth who shall be sorted among the sheep and who among the goats. Only when we stand before the Throne is that revealed to us. It is not for us to say what that judgment will be, lest hubris get the better of us. All we can do is have faith in ourselves, in humanity, and in a loving God. We do what we can, all else lies out of our hands.
Of course this still leaves out my interpretation of Hell and other such things, but that would take far too long to discuss. And I think that I would get flamed (pun not intended) by the entire mob if I did that.
Okay, I'm getting my head start now before people can get after me with pitchforks.
In celebration I went out last night and picked up some more Chick Tracts (Unloved and Bad Bob), in the process getting myself into a discussion with one of the pamphleteers for over an hour. It was an amiable discussion - we just didn't find ourselves agreeing on a lot of points. The discussion quickly ended up in the old faith-and-works argument, as well as debate on whether or not you could declare yourself "Saved".
I'm not very fond of the faith-only approach, so I argued against it. In the process, however, I had to project my beliefs into the form of Christianity. Since I am not, precisely, Christian, understand that I found this a bit difficult to do. As a result, I wonder if, somehow, in doing so I committed some kind of doctrinal fault. Because I have no idea how I sounded (he was well-practiced), I have no idea if I am insulting Christianity by just appearing to ape it. After all, I am taking beliefs that fit me, and that are manifestly mine, and entering them in a framework that I only believe is compatible. So, in light of possible future encounters, I have written down my argument here, and freely invite people to come tear it to shreds or find doctrinal holes (I expect that there are some in there somewhere). This is actually heartfelt; I want to know if my conception of what Christian beliefs could mean is completely unacceptable to Christianity.
Note: Since I am essentially projecting myself into a religion I may or may not share, I will understand perfectly if someone wishes to flame me to death for this. I expect most people will not agree.
1) In the beginning there was Jesus, who died upon the cross to redeem the sins of mankind.
2) And this was a sacrifice, and like all sacrifices, freely given. If someone wanted to sacrifice their life to save your pregnant mother, you can't undo the sacrifice. You can do whatever you like with your life - it's yours, but the sacrifice cannot be undone. What was done was done freely, given to all of mankind, with no obligation or strings attached. If there were strings attached it would not be a sacrifice, and then what would the point be?
3) And this means that all of us are washed free of sin - more or less.
4) Which means that all of us look favorable in the eyes of God. For which there seems to be a fair amount of Biblical evidence to the contrary. Let's face it, we do a lot of terrible things in life. Surely there is an accounting for this eventually, isn't there? God being a just God and all.
5) So if not everyone goes to heaven, who does? Jesus claimed that we needed Faith to enter heaven, and that he was the Way. To the born-again crowd, Faith is key.
6) But what is Faith? For many people, it comes out as something of a magic formula. Claim that you trust some guy, and you get into heaven. Taking the name of Jesus, and claiming that you trust in him as savior, is the only way to enter the holy gates. Jesus claimed that no man came unto the Father except by him, which you can use as evidence. But that seems rather arbitrary. Millions of people have lived and died over the years without ever hearing His name. Do they all get a one-way ticket to hell? What about those who have never seen an example of a good Christian, or whose only exposure to Jesus is through overblown and overdone sermons, or other obvious falsehoods? Are we to blame for the failings of His missionaries? Given what Jesus said, I would venture to say no.
7) So let us assume that when Jesus was speaking of himself being the Way, that he was speaking of something else entirely. For no man can come unto the Lord except through the sacrifice He made. He is then the Way, not just for those who cling to His name, but for all mankind.
8) So then what tells us is that we are pleasing in the sight of God through Faith, but also that Faith has multiple meanings. It is not simply name-chanting, it must be something more thorough and all-encompassing. So who gets to stay?
9) Jesus answers this question by deed and action. Why did he spend so much time preaching the Sermon on the Mount, which is perhaps the climax of the entire New Testament? Why does he speak of casting away riches to feed the poor, and tell us that a camel could more easily pass through the eye of a needle than enter the gate of heaven. Why are the sheep and goats separated by basis of their deeds and not their faith - in fact, does Jesus even question their faith? Why does he tell us that not all who say "Lord, Lord" will enter heaven, but only those who do the will of the Father?
10) Because, for Jesus, Faith meant loving humanity, loving your neighbor as your brother, loving the meek, loving the poor and the downtrodden and the beaten as much as the rich and the famous. But love that is not acted upon remains merely childish infatuation. You cannot know either God's will, or the driving passion behind Jesus's life, you cannot have faith in a good and loving deity, and not follow the path that Jesus laid. It is impossible to believe without loving, and you cannot love without acting upon that love. Words are not enough - deeds must go along.
11) In the end (and this is a bit of a stretch), Jesus did not die just to give us all a Free Ticket Out of Hell. He died to open a way that we could, if we tried enough, follow. If there is anything in His message to which we must listen, it is this: If we are to believe in Him then we must act as He did, as He would. In the end we will make mistakes, and sin, and do other terrible things because we are human and fallible. But, in the end we will come to heaven, and stand before the Throne, and we will be weighed on whether or not we fulfilled the basic commandment of Jesus' life, to love our neighbor. Did we have faith in life in the nature of good, faith in our fellow man and in his Creator, faith enough to sustain us while we faced a world that many times rewards good deeds with hardship? If so, then we shall find favor in the eyes of God. Whether we knew or said the magic name is not part of this - who cares if you know a name? There is a deeper meaning to faith, and it is that we must achieve.
12) So in the end, you will be Judged and either found wanting or pleasing. We do not know how harshly the judgment will be - for the Lord has not revealed it ahead of time, nor do we know what His decision is, for that decision is his alone. He is just, and loving, and merciful, but He is Himself, and we do not know while still on earth who shall be sorted among the sheep and who among the goats. Only when we stand before the Throne is that revealed to us. It is not for us to say what that judgment will be, lest hubris get the better of us. All we can do is have faith in ourselves, in humanity, and in a loving God. We do what we can, all else lies out of our hands.
Of course this still leaves out my interpretation of Hell and other such things, but that would take far too long to discuss. And I think that I would get flamed (pun not intended) by the entire mob if I did that.
Okay, I'm getting my head start now before people can get after me with pitchforks.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-27 04:02 pm (UTC)The line, actually, is that it would be easier for a camel to thread through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
It looks good to me; some of this reminded me of Origen (who was a heretic, but he was a heretic I agree with). A paraphrase of his heresy: "If God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and all-loving, not one single person can remain in Hell for all eternity, or evil has won."
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-27 04:10 pm (UTC)My opinions on hell will only get me into trouble.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-27 11:55 pm (UTC)1) Having given a lot of thought to what "The Good News" is (this is a phrase that got thrown around a lot in R.E. Class without really being explained), I've come to the conclusion that the Crucifixion itself is not the most important feature of Christianity; it's what led up to the Crucifixion and what took place after it. Jesus taught a whole new way to live, a religion of pacifism and selflessness, with a loving, forgiving Father-God at its heart. He was willing to die for that message rather than recant. The Resurrection afterwards is proof to Christians of Jesus' divinity. The fact that Jesus died in that particular way (ie on a cross) is almost immaterial.
2) Yes, when we die we will all be judged by our deeds. But it's important to remember the parable of the Prodigal Son. It doesn't matter if you fuck up - repent, truly repent, and try once more to live as Jesus taught. I don't believe that at the end there's a big list of checks and balances and if you've done more bad than good, it's off to Hell with you - what's important is where you're at *when you die*.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-09-11 04:52 am (UTC)Another man walks by the same street beggar, takes some bills out of his pocket, and places them into the beggar's hand. Then, he looks the beggar in the eyes and gives a polite nod.
He never mentions his deed to anyone...
(no subject)
Date: 2006-09-22 06:48 am (UTC)You've mentioned several times that you don't think your beliefs are in line with Christianity, but I don't see how they're so out of whack. Christianity is a big religion, with many, many factions that disagree on the dumbest of details, so there's room for a lot of interpretations.
Personally? I agree with what you've written. Just a few comments here:
Why does he speak of casting away riches to feed the poor, and tell us that a camel could more easily pass through the eye of a needle than enter the gate of heaven.
You probably already know this, but the thing with the camel and the eye of the needle is actually a reference to a real gate that led into Jerusalem. It was really tiny, but by unloading your camel and laboriously leading it through, it was possible to accomplish. So, too, with heaven: possible, but it requires a great deal of bowing down. Actually, I think that's one of the more elegantly chosen references in the Bible.
It is impossible to believe without loving, and you cannot love without acting upon that love.
Yes. You've hit it on the head, there. I've always thought that making a distinction between the importance of faith vs. acts is a needless dichotomy, since any Christian who is really feeling it will be elbow-deep in both faith and acts.
And hey, I don't see any pitchforks from the mob yet. How about a post on Hell?